Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid
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Dr_Pain said in Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid:
Well steve4102 it is between you and I now…
I was following because I like the science behind things and was being lazy. Before going to Physical Therapy school my undergraduate degree was in Biochemistry. Again I was being lazy because I could have research it for you. So let me get to work to find the answer for us…
From my summary research I found that phosphates are:
- Hygroscopic, which means they attract moisture. The reason to use the following i.e. potassium tripolyphosphate, tetrapotassium pyrophosphate, and sodium hexameta-phosphate is because they are more hygroscopic than salt, increasing water holding capacity in order to lead to higher yields
- In the right concentration phosphates affects flavor. Some researchers have indicated that phosphates, particularly at high levels, result in “soapy” or bitter tastes, improving texture and sensory properties (tenderness, juiciness, color and flavor)
- Polyphosphates also chelate or “tie up” divalent cations (calcium, magnesium or iron) from hard water supplies, so basically act as a water conditioners
- The phosphates (alkaline compounds) will enhance the stability of emulsion products and improve the binding of meat chunks in sectioned and formed meat products. Because your mince may be affected by temperature (cooking or emulsifying in the processors), phosphates also helps in protecting the emulsion from those temperature variations which is extremely valuable in the production of low-sodium meat products (since they have less myosin extraction then a high sodium content product).
5)Phosphates exhibit a high pH in water (the pH value listed in phosphate specifications), but since meat is a buffer itself, phosphates’ effect on meat pH is considerably less. Even the limited increase in pH (approximately 0.6 unit maximum) appears to increase water-holding capacity and protein solubility. On the negative side, this increase on pH will reduce cured color development. - Lastly, phosphates in meat products are also sources of the supply of phosphorus for consumers through diet, which is an essential mineral
So, in summary (and relevant to your original question) Sodium Phophates (for example, 0.9 g of Na2HPO4 (anhydrous) to distilled H2O to make a volume of 1 L) will generate a pH of 7.4, which correct is alkaline however as described above the meat will act as a buffer and the pH will actually be stabilized rather than alkalotic.
Although adding Encapsulated Citric Acid may sound counter productive initially on the basis of pH remember that Sodium Phosphate is not only slightly alkaline and will only affect pH by 0.6 units. The addition of Phosphates does have additional benefits that ECA may not have (did not research it). Comparatively Encapsulated Citric acid has a pH of 4.2 which is added to the buffer (mince) to produce a tang in the pH range of 4.8-5.2 normally. Personally I use cultures such as LHP-Dry etc… over ECA but I did buy some recently because you can go from processed to cooking much faster than holding over night and using a digital pH meter to verify the end of your acidifying period.
Hopefully this was not too bad of a read
Have a great day!!!
yeah, uh, what he said!
Ridley Acres said in Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid:
yeah, uh, what he said!
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Dr_Pain said in Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid:
Well steve4102 it is between you and I now…
I was following because I like the science behind things and was being lazy. Before going to Physical Therapy school my undergraduate degree was in Biochemistry. Again I was being lazy because I could have research it for you. So let me get to work to find the answer for us…
From my summary research I found that phosphates are:
- Hygroscopic, which means they attract moisture. The reason to use the following i.e. potassium tripolyphosphate, tetrapotassium pyrophosphate, and sodium hexameta-phosphate is because they are more hygroscopic than salt, increasing water holding capacity in order to lead to higher yields
- In the right concentration phosphates affects flavor. Some researchers have indicated that phosphates, particularly at high levels, result in “soapy” or bitter tastes, improving texture and sensory properties (tenderness, juiciness, color and flavor)
- Polyphosphates also chelate or “tie up” divalent cations (calcium, magnesium or iron) from hard water supplies, so basically act as a water conditioners
- The phosphates (alkaline compounds) will enhance the stability of emulsion products and improve the binding of meat chunks in sectioned and formed meat products. Because your mince may be affected by temperature (cooking or emulsifying in the processors), phosphates also helps in protecting the emulsion from those temperature variations which is extremely valuable in the production of low-sodium meat products (since they have less myosin extraction then a high sodium content product).
5)Phosphates exhibit a high pH in water (the pH value listed in phosphate specifications), but since meat is a buffer itself, phosphates’ effect on meat pH is considerably less. Even the limited increase in pH (approximately 0.6 unit maximum) appears to increase water-holding capacity and protein solubility. On the negative side, this increase on pH will reduce cured color development. - Lastly, phosphates in meat products are also sources of the supply of phosphorus for consumers through diet, which is an essential mineral
So, in summary (and relevant to your original question) Sodium Phophates (for example, 0.9 g of Na2HPO4 (anhydrous) to distilled H2O to make a volume of 1 L) will generate a pH of 7.4, which correct is alkaline however as described above the meat will act as a buffer and the pH will actually be stabilized rather than alkalotic.
Although adding Encapsulated Citric Acid may sound counter productive initially on the basis of pH remember that Sodium Phosphate is not only slightly alkaline and will only affect pH by 0.6 units. The addition of Phosphates does have additional benefits that ECA may not have (did not research it). Comparatively Encapsulated Citric acid has a pH of 4.2 which is added to the buffer (mince) to produce a tang in the pH range of 4.8-5.2 normally. Personally I use cultures such as LHP-Dry etc… over ECA but I did buy some recently because you can go from processed to cooking much faster than holding over night and using a digital pH meter to verify the end of your acidifying period.
Hopefully this was not too bad of a read
Have a great day!!!
yeah, uh, what he said!
Ridley Acres he lost me as soon as I got to the word science. Sometimes I wish I was smart, then I just assume it must be magic if I dont understand
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Well steve4102 it is between you and I now…
I was following because I like the science behind things and was being lazy. Before going to Physical Therapy school my undergraduate degree was in Biochemistry. Again I was being lazy because I could have research it for you. So let me get to work to find the answer for us…
From my summary research I found that phosphates are:
- Hygroscopic, which means they attract moisture. The reason to use the following i.e. potassium tripolyphosphate, tetrapotassium pyrophosphate, and sodium hexameta-phosphate is because they are more hygroscopic than salt, increasing water holding capacity in order to lead to higher yields
- In the right concentration phosphates affects flavor. Some researchers have indicated that phosphates, particularly at high levels, result in “soapy” or bitter tastes, improving texture and sensory properties (tenderness, juiciness, color and flavor)
- Polyphosphates also chelate or “tie up” divalent cations (calcium, magnesium or iron) from hard water supplies, so basically act as a water conditioners
- The phosphates (alkaline compounds) will enhance the stability of emulsion products and improve the binding of meat chunks in sectioned and formed meat products. Because your mince may be affected by temperature (cooking or emulsifying in the processors), phosphates also helps in protecting the emulsion from those temperature variations which is extremely valuable in the production of low-sodium meat products (since they have less myosin extraction then a high sodium content product).
5)Phosphates exhibit a high pH in water (the pH value listed in phosphate specifications), but since meat is a buffer itself, phosphates’ effect on meat pH is considerably less. Even the limited increase in pH (approximately 0.6 unit maximum) appears to increase water-holding capacity and protein solubility. On the negative side, this increase on pH will reduce cured color development. - Lastly, phosphates in meat products are also sources of the supply of phosphorus for consumers through diet, which is an essential mineral
So, in summary (and relevant to your original question) Sodium Phophates (for example, 0.9 g of Na2HPO4 (anhydrous) to distilled H2O to make a volume of 1 L) will generate a pH of 7.4, which correct is alkaline however as described above the meat will act as a buffer and the pH will actually be stabilized rather than alkalotic.
Although adding Encapsulated Citric Acid may sound counter productive initially on the basis of pH remember that Sodium Phosphate is not only slightly alkaline and will only affect pH by 0.6 units. The addition of Phosphates does have additional benefits that ECA may not have (did not research it). Comparatively Encapsulated Citric acid has a pH of 4.2 which is added to the buffer (mince) to produce a tang in the pH range of 4.8-5.2 normally. Personally I use cultures such as LHP-Dry etc… over ECA but I did buy some recently because you can go from processed to cooking much faster than holding over night and using a digital pH meter to verify the end of your acidifying period.
Hopefully this was not too bad of a read
Have a great day!!!
Dr_Pain Yowser!!! It was like I was back in chemistry class and I understood the words.
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YooperDog I don’t think I want to go back to that class, metal shop maybe.
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Well steve4102 it is between you and I now…
I was following because I like the science behind things and was being lazy. Before going to Physical Therapy school my undergraduate degree was in Biochemistry. Again I was being lazy because I could have research it for you. So let me get to work to find the answer for us…
From my summary research I found that phosphates are:
- Hygroscopic, which means they attract moisture. The reason to use the following i.e. potassium tripolyphosphate, tetrapotassium pyrophosphate, and sodium hexameta-phosphate is because they are more hygroscopic than salt, increasing water holding capacity in order to lead to higher yields
- In the right concentration phosphates affects flavor. Some researchers have indicated that phosphates, particularly at high levels, result in “soapy” or bitter tastes, improving texture and sensory properties (tenderness, juiciness, color and flavor)
- Polyphosphates also chelate or “tie up” divalent cations (calcium, magnesium or iron) from hard water supplies, so basically act as a water conditioners
- The phosphates (alkaline compounds) will enhance the stability of emulsion products and improve the binding of meat chunks in sectioned and formed meat products. Because your mince may be affected by temperature (cooking or emulsifying in the processors), phosphates also helps in protecting the emulsion from those temperature variations which is extremely valuable in the production of low-sodium meat products (since they have less myosin extraction then a high sodium content product).
5)Phosphates exhibit a high pH in water (the pH value listed in phosphate specifications), but since meat is a buffer itself, phosphates’ effect on meat pH is considerably less. Even the limited increase in pH (approximately 0.6 unit maximum) appears to increase water-holding capacity and protein solubility. On the negative side, this increase on pH will reduce cured color development. - Lastly, phosphates in meat products are also sources of the supply of phosphorus for consumers through diet, which is an essential mineral
So, in summary (and relevant to your original question) Sodium Phophates (for example, 0.9 g of Na2HPO4 (anhydrous) to distilled H2O to make a volume of 1 L) will generate a pH of 7.4, which correct is alkaline however as described above the meat will act as a buffer and the pH will actually be stabilized rather than alkalotic.
Although adding Encapsulated Citric Acid may sound counter productive initially on the basis of pH remember that Sodium Phosphate is not only slightly alkaline and will only affect pH by 0.6 units. The addition of Phosphates does have additional benefits that ECA may not have (did not research it). Comparatively Encapsulated Citric acid has a pH of 4.2 which is added to the buffer (mince) to produce a tang in the pH range of 4.8-5.2 normally. Personally I use cultures such as LHP-Dry etc… over ECA but I did buy some recently because you can go from processed to cooking much faster than holding over night and using a digital pH meter to verify the end of your acidifying period.
Hopefully this was not too bad of a read
Have a great day!!!
Dr_Pain what kind of sorcery is this.
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Would it be safe to say that these two additives have their effect on meat at different times during processing?
Wondering if phosphates impact protein extraction and water binding during mixing prior to cooking and ECA does it’s thing during thermal processing.Paul
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Ridley Acres he lost me as soon as I got to the word science. Sometimes I wish I was smart, then I just assume it must be magic if I dont understand
kyle said in Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid:
Ridley Acres he lost me as soon as I got to the word science. Sometimes I wish I was smart, then I just assume it must be magic if I dont understand
Everyone is gifted somewhere. God saw that science made sense
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YooperDog said in Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid:
Dr_Pain Yowser!!! It was like I was back in chemistry class and I understood the words.
Don’t you wish you could back in time and go through those classes again knowing what you know now?!?
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GWG8541 said in Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid:
Dr_Pain what kind of sorcery is this.
Now that is funny!!! It is definitely not sorcery. Just applied research on subject I somewhat understand. Thanks for the laugh!!
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Would it be safe to say that these two additives have their effect on meat at different times during processing?
Wondering if phosphates impact protein extraction and water binding during mixing prior to cooking and ECA does it’s thing during thermal processing.processhead said in Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid:
Would it be safe to say that these two additives have their effect on meat at different times during processing?
Wondering if phosphates impact protein extraction and water binding during mixing prior to cooking and ECA does it’s thing during thermal processing.Hey Paul, based on what is added when, I would say you are on the money. Obviously Phosphates will have longer effects on the mince and will definitely help in protein extraction (because it is a salt, because it denatures the myosin and because of water trapping)
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YooperDog said in Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid:
Dr_Pain Yowser!!! It was like I was back in chemistry class and I understood the words.
Don’t you wish you could back in time and go through those classes again knowing what you know now?!?
Dr_Pain A new focus and a wealth of experience puts a whole new spin on learning. Before I had to take the classes now I can take the courses that I actually have an interest in. And if I am paying for the course the instructor better bring their A-game.
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Would it be safe to say that these two additives have their effect on meat at different times during processing?
Wondering if phosphates impact protein extraction and water binding during mixing prior to cooking and ECA does it’s thing during thermal processing.processhead said in Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid:
Would it be safe to say that these two additives have their effect on meat at different times during processing?
Wondering if phosphates impact protein extraction and water binding during mixing prior to cooking and ECA does it’s thing during thermal processing.That was my understanding also when reading into it.
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YooperDog isn’t it funny that the stuff we didn’t pay real attention to in school, actually meant something. Who would have thought so much science went into making sausage.
“You never really die until you end up on the wall at a Cracker Barrel”
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YooperDog isn’t it funny that the stuff we didn’t pay real attention to in school, actually meant something. Who would have thought so much science went into making sausage.
GWG8541 said in Special Meat Binder vs Encapsulated Citric Acid:
YooperDog isn’t it funny that the stuff we didn’t pay real attention to in school, actually meant something. Who would have thought so much science went into making sausage.
“Why the heck am I studying that!?!?! I’ll never use it in real life!!” ROFL!
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Hey guys, sorry this one somehow initially slipped by me and JohnG5 and then we did answer a question on it on one of the livestreams so I didn’t think to come back and provide a more detailed answer. Personally, I don’t think it can be answered much better than Dr_Pain did and I am certainly not going to try to poke holes in what he said as he is obviously knowledgable on the subject.
We are contacting a few university meat departments to have their professors on as Meatgistics Podcast guests and a further explanation of this will absolutely be on there. AS well as the |Encapsulated-Citric-Acid question someone asked a few weeks back about how ECA keeps the meat “safe” while in the danger zone if it doesn’t melt fully until 130°. I believe the answer to that is enough of it is released earlier that it creates enough of an acidic environment to prevent the microbes from being able to reproduce. The cells can’t let anything in through their cell walls so they can’t “feed” and die off. BUT I have read an interesting article that claims that isn’t the case. Anyway, long story short, awesome job by Claude and we will do better at getting to the sciency ones sooner!
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