Problems with my sausage and snack sticks.
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sawdoff We have a Meatgistics University Article that covers this in more detail https://meatgistics.waltons.com/topic/753/seasoning-additives-105-common-additives but basically |Encapsulated-Citric-Acid or |Sodium-Erythorbate or |Smoked-Meat-Stabilizer act as cure accelerators, they breakdown the Nitrite in Sure Cure, which is what actually cures the product.
This allows you to go right from stuffing to the smoker instead of having to hold it for 12 hours after stuffing.
Get more help with your processing questions and learn more about processing meat by subscribing to our waltonsinc.com youtube page at https://wltns.link/waltonstv I am a Gorilla, love yourself
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sawdoff We have a Meatgistics University Article that covers this in more detail https://meatgistics.waltons.com/topic/753/seasoning-additives-105-common-additives but basically |Encapsulated-Citric-Acid or |Sodium-Erythorbate or |Smoked-Meat-Stabilizer act as cure accelerators, they breakdown the Nitrite in Sure Cure, which is what actually cures the product.
This allows you to go right from stuffing to the smoker instead of having to hold it for 12 hours after stuffing.
Jonathon said in Problems with my sausage and snack sticks.: This allows you to go right from stuffing to the smoker instead of having to hold it for 12 hours after stuffing.
And what if you don’t smoke straight away and end up holding it stuffed overnight? What are the bad things that happen?
Denny O’s-Smokey Bones
I’d rather be sit’in in a boat and thinking about God,
Than sit’n in church and thinking about fish’in! -
Jonathon said in Problems with my sausage and snack sticks.: This allows you to go right from stuffing to the smoker instead of having to hold it for 12 hours after stuffing.
And what if you don’t smoke straight away and end up holding it stuffed overnight? What are the bad things that happen?
Denny O Here’s what I know from reading on accelerators, and using them in most everything I make that is not fresh sausage. I’m sure others like Jonathon will have more details and info.
On the sodium erythorbate it’s just like leaving your cure for an extra day in fridge. The ECA might be an issue as the coating is delicate and letting it sit around risks more of the citric acid contacting meat, which ruins texture and bind (whole reason you encapsulated the citric acid to start with). But the sodium erythorbate is ok. The smoked meat stabilizer product Jonathon mentioned, contains Ascorbic Acid and Sodium Citrate per it’s description, which act as cure accelerators. I myself just use vitamin c, ascorbic acid, at the rate of 1 gram i.e. 1000mg tablet per 1 kg of meat, per Marianski’s book… mostly because it works good, and I know I’m gonna eat vitamin c anyways and be happy for it
also sodium erythorbate since it was in stock at Walton’s and I got a bag of it But really, you probably know while you’re mixing your block whether you will cook immediately or let it sit overnight in fridge… probably best to not add accelerators unless you plan on stuff and smoke right then. I just never want to leave in fridge overnight, or my wife doesn’t want me too heh. And in Phx, stuff dries fast and I can go right to smoker fast.
However, one reason you might want to add erythorbate (not the acids) and let sit, is that in addition to accelerating the cure by releasing the nitric oxide gas fast, it ALSO fixes the color and can give improved coloring. So for Canadian bacon, as I wanted a good strong pink color, I added some erythorbate for that then let it sit for a week curing. I probably wouldn’t do this for a sausage where I needed to ensure a good bind though.
Edit, it bears repeating, don’t add a cure accelerator to a brine with cure#1 or 2, it will offgas nitric oxide fast and greate poisonous gas you shouldn’t breath! Add to meat block separate from your cure1. -
Thanks. I didn’t use eca this time because I couldn’t find any. Thats why I let it sit in the fridg. for 12 hrs. I will give the sodium erythorbate at try. Is that the actual name or is it called something else? Guess I’ll have to start hording ingredients so I have them next time. Thank again.
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Thanks. I didn’t use eca this time because I couldn’t find any. Thats why I let it sit in the fridg. for 12 hrs. I will give the sodium erythorbate at try. Is that the actual name or is it called something else? Guess I’ll have to start hording ingredients so I have them next time. Thank again.
sawdoff Walton’s sells sodium erythorbate in a nice size bag, maybe 1 lb? That one they actually just call by it’s chemical name, not a brand name. You only use a tsp or so, so lasts a long time. I like that one the best now I have it, and if you ever see an accelerator listed in ingredients it will be this one 99% of time. Here it is for you:
https://waltons.com/sodium-erythorbate/And that ascorbic acid and sodium citrate Smoked meat stabilizer sounds like a good mix… I haven’t read anywhere about sodium citrate, but the sodium salts of erythorbic and ascorbic acid are both used as accelerators so I expect it’s effect to be similar to citric acid. But if you’re in a bind then Vitamin C, which is ascorbic acid, works great and you can grab everywhere. 1000mg tablet per 1kg or 2.2 lbs meat.
How fast stuff cures with just salt and cure#1 (salt plus 6.25% sodium nitrite) depends on meat size. Whole muscle 4" diameter like a loin takes maybe 12 days, finely ground stuff with cure well mixed in water 1 day. One inch chunks I’d leave longer than a day. But for just me, I would go longer than 12 hours for anything, to be sure, especially with a larger grind or if I used less than 2.5gram per kg of meat.
P.s. sorry for going onnnn… I’m sitting in a parking lot for 2 hours waiting for my kid to be done an appointment, needed to keep occupied!
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Dave in AZ Yup, one of the cool things I learned in our Cured Sausage short course was that the enzymes and any bacteria in your meat can start eating the encapsulation. So, the coating is designed to not melt until it reaches a certain temp, this is to prevent the proteins from being denatured too early in the process. However, if the meat has enough enzymes or bacteria in it, they will eat that coating and release the acid. What normally happens is you end up with a dry and crumbly texture to your snack stick or whatever it is.
Now, I have twice tested this and left |Encapsulated-Citric-Acid in a product overnight and not been able to see any issue, however they showed us at Iowa State where they did it and there was severe color issues in the meat before smoking and then the product did not burn as nice and red after.
The thickness of the meat only matters if we are talking about a dry rub or wet brine. When we inject or are talking about sausage those rules don’t apply as we have introduced the cure (and accelerator if we used one) all throughout
Get more help with your processing questions and learn more about processing meat by subscribing to our waltonsinc.com youtube page at https://wltns.link/waltonstv I am a Gorilla, love yourself
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Dave in AZ Yup, one of the cool things I learned in our Cured Sausage short course was that the enzymes and any bacteria in your meat can start eating the encapsulation. So, the coating is designed to not melt until it reaches a certain temp, this is to prevent the proteins from being denatured too early in the process. However, if the meat has enough enzymes or bacteria in it, they will eat that coating and release the acid. What normally happens is you end up with a dry and crumbly texture to your snack stick or whatever it is.
Now, I have twice tested this and left |Encapsulated-Citric-Acid in a product overnight and not been able to see any issue, however they showed us at Iowa State where they did it and there was severe color issues in the meat before smoking and then the product did not burn as nice and red after.
The thickness of the meat only matters if we are talking about a dry rub or wet brine. When we inject or are talking about sausage those rules don’t apply as we have introduced the cure (and accelerator if we used one) all throughout
Jonathon that sure seems like a great course you took, lot of useful info! I hope you’ll be able to take some more like that, as you are an incredible communicator on your videos. Your knowledge and expertise reaches so many folks, in an easy approachable manner, the more you learn the better for all of us!
thx! -
Jonathon that sure seems like a great course you took, lot of useful info! I hope you’ll be able to take some more like that, as you are an incredible communicator on your videos. Your knowledge and expertise reaches so many folks, in an easy approachable manner, the more you learn the better for all of us!
thx!Dave in AZ I have to second that!!! This platform has so much to learn from. I fumbled so many times in the past, but now are producing quality products. Sharing information on all sorts of topics, if you can’t learn something here, you must have a Doctorate in food or life. I absolutely enjoy this and it will always continue to educate and entertain. Thanks for everything that Waltons does.
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Denny O Here’s what I know from reading on accelerators, and using them in most everything I make that is not fresh sausage. I’m sure others like Jonathon will have more details and info.
On the sodium erythorbate it’s just like leaving your cure for an extra day in fridge. The ECA might be an issue as the coating is delicate and letting it sit around risks more of the citric acid contacting meat, which ruins texture and bind (whole reason you encapsulated the citric acid to start with). But the sodium erythorbate is ok. The smoked meat stabilizer product Jonathon mentioned, contains Ascorbic Acid and Sodium Citrate per it’s description, which act as cure accelerators. I myself just use vitamin c, ascorbic acid, at the rate of 1 gram i.e. 1000mg tablet per 1 kg of meat, per Marianski’s book… mostly because it works good, and I know I’m gonna eat vitamin c anyways and be happy for it
also sodium erythorbate since it was in stock at Walton’s and I got a bag of it But really, you probably know while you’re mixing your block whether you will cook immediately or let it sit overnight in fridge… probably best to not add accelerators unless you plan on stuff and smoke right then. I just never want to leave in fridge overnight, or my wife doesn’t want me too heh. And in Phx, stuff dries fast and I can go right to smoker fast.
However, one reason you might want to add erythorbate (not the acids) and let sit, is that in addition to accelerating the cure by releasing the nitric oxide gas fast, it ALSO fixes the color and can give improved coloring. So for Canadian bacon, as I wanted a good strong pink color, I added some erythorbate for that then let it sit for a week curing. I probably wouldn’t do this for a sausage where I needed to ensure a good bind though.
Edit, it bears repeating, don’t add a cure accelerator to a brine with cure#1 or 2, it will offgas nitric oxide fast and greate poisonous gas you shouldn’t breath! Add to meat block separate from your cure1.Dave in AZ said in Problems with my sausage and snack sticks.:
Denny O Here’s what I know from reading on accelerators, and using them in most everything I make that is not fresh sausage. I’m sure others like Jonathon will have more details and info.
On the sodium erythorbate it’s just like leaving your cure for an extra day in fridge. The ECA might be an issue as the coating is delicate and letting it sit around risks more of the citric acid contacting meat, which ruins texture and bind (whole reason you encapsulated the citric acid to start with). But the sodium erythorbate is ok. The smoked meat stabilizer product Jonathon mentioned, contains Ascorbic Acid and Sodium Citrate per it’s description, which act as cure accelerators. I myself just use vitamin c, ascorbic acid, at the rate of 1 gram i.e. 1000mg tablet per 1 kg of meat, per Marianski’s book… mostly because it works good, and I know I’m gonna eat vitamin c anyways and be happy for it
also sodium erythorbate since it was in stock at Walton’s and I got a bag of it But really, you probably know while you’re mixing your block whether you will cook immediately or let it sit overnight in fridge… probably best to not add accelerators unless you plan on stuff and smoke right then. I just never want to leave in fridge overnight, or my wife doesn’t want me too heh. And in Phx, stuff dries fast and I can go right to smoker fast.
However, one reason you might want to add erythorbate (not the acids) and let sit, is that in addition to accelerating the cure by releasing the nitric oxide gas fast, it ALSO fixes the color and can give improved coloring. So for Canadian bacon, as I wanted a good strong pink color, I added some erythorbate for that then let it sit for a week curing. I probably wouldn’t do this for a sausage where I needed to ensure a good bind though.
Edit, it bears repeating, don’t add a cure accelerator to a brine with cure#1 or 2, it will offgas nitric oxide fast and greate poisonous gas you shouldn’t breath! Add to meat block separate from your cure1.Dave,
Many thanks For your extended explanation in this replay! I’m going to have to restart my WHOLE sausage side thinking.Fresh sausage is one thing, not getting into that now, it is fresh!
Bacon is something I’m just now getting to the bottom of using some of Walton’s products. I’ve been doing the curing my way as I have done with my tried and true method for several years. With Jonathon help today, I hope to learn from him to see if I like and prefer Walton’s products added.
SO now to this subject of cures, seasonings and other additives for summer sausage and meat sticks is my train of thinking in this thread.
ECA is really my focus. I have recently had the tang flavor and a crisp moist snap in a 15 mm deer meat stick, and a deer summer sausage in a 2 1/2" mahogany collagen casing that I wish to pursue.
My current deer summer sausage has been a few different national premixed seasonings like, Hi Mountain, Lem the one other and then a local mix from Todds here. I have tried several of their seasoning mixes for different deer summer sausages and then combine it with a local smoked pepper cheese that I’m not sure if it is high temp or not. But just LUV the flavor!
My last batch of DSS was with Walton’s high temp smoked pepper cheese, I won’t but that cheese again, it is lack luster. Sorry Waltons.
OOps, I Apologize to the original poster sawdoff for derailing your thread!
Denny O is 10-7. -
Denny O No need to be sorry, the hot pepper cheese is basically a Monterey jack, which never had enough flavor for me. I use |High-Temp-Cheddar-Cheese for a few snack sticks like |Willie-s-Snack-Stick-Seasoning and |Habanero-BBQ-Snack-Stick-or-Summer-Sausage and then I use |High-Temp-Ghost-Pepper-Cheese for anything I want to add heat too and |High-Temp-Mozzarella-Cheese for most everything else. |High-Temp-Swiss-Cheese Only comes into play with a few seasonings, usually the ones that I want the creaminess of some extra cheese but no strong cheese flavor.
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