Lox or cold smoked salmon
-
Mcjagger yeah, that is an interesting area that you noticed. I saw that too when standardizing and comparing numerous recipes and did some research. Several of the recipes use cure#1 when smoking, to protect fish while it is in danger zone. However, in all the several hundred sausage or salmon recipes I’ve read, only Marianski starts with USFDA FSIS allowable nitrite concentrations and works from there for his recipes. Which he does for brines like this. So I definitely trust his recipe cure amounts over other recipes, which commonly don’t calculate it correctly at all.
In this case, processhead is correct in all his points above. The much shorter brine time is calculated for, 1 to 8 hrs vs. 36 to 72 hrs most use with a more dilute equilibrium brine. But mostly it is using FDA amounts instead of an arbitrarily lower amount I think.
USFDA has different amounts of nitrite allowed if mixed into commutated meat like sausage, 156ppm, vs a dry rub, 625ppm I think, vs a brine or pump/massage 200ppm. For a brine, you actually calculate the uptake per the USFDA as well as the total volume of brine vs. Meat volume if equilibrium curing. So if you pump a brisket with 10% brine, that is used. If you just immerse, the water weight pickup is used. So there are different tables for brine. All of that is in his book, as well as the USFDA regs he references. Anyways, due to the large water vs. Meat volumes, the correct amount of cure always looks high.
You can use less nitrate, but Marianski cites info that shows below 40-50 ppm of nitrite it’s ability to color fix and protect against c botulin are questionable especially for longer danger zone times like you get in cold smoking. By the time you pull from smoker nitrate is hugely reduced and drops off to almost zero in days, due to rapid conversion to nitric oxide. Foods like cold smoked salmon which do not undergo a heat lethality treatment actually have a MINIMUM REQUIRED ingoing nitrite of 120ppm to ensure safety. Most non-commercial recipes which don’t ever get subjected to, or have to pass, a Food Safety Inspection Service review, just ignore all their data and requirements.
I use a brine calculator at diggingdogfarm
dot com as well as Marianski’s tables and calcs for the cure#1 amounts
Since I already typed so much, for answer completion I will paste the start of Marianski’s brine calc example, where you can see the limit is actually 6T with a 10% pickup, Salmon in an 80degree brine is 3-4%:
“Immersed, Pumped and Massaged Products Here, it is much harder to come up with a universal formula as there are so many variables that have to be determined first. The main factor is to determine % pump when injecting the meat with a syringe or % pick-up when immersing meat in a curing solution. We will calculate the formula for 1 gallon of water, Cure #1 and 10% pick-up gain. Then the formula can be multiplied or divided to accommodate different amounts of meat. 10% pump or 10% pick-up mean that the cured meat should absorb 10% of the brine in relation to its original weight. For immersion, pumped or massaged products, the maximum in-going nitrite limit is 200 ppm and that corresponds to adding 4.2 oz of Cure #1 to 1 gallon of water. 1 gallon (8.33 lb) of water Cure #1 in ounces Cure #1 in grams Cure #1 in teaspoons 4.2 120 20 tsp (6 Tbsp)”Dave in AZ You definitely tore all of the processes apart and put them back together. Good job. Hopefully, you finalize on a positive result.
-
Dave in AZ You mention airtight, when cold smoking with my Masterbuilt I run with the vent wide open.
Closing or restricting the vent produces the bitter taste IMHOglen I think you’re right, I’d like a lot of the smoke products to go out the vent. Like the vinegar. Unfortunately, this thing doesn’t really have a vent
Just a 1in hole on top that you can’t open more, and no real inlet hole. It is pretty darn airtight with door closed.
It is an electric oven mostly. That will be good when doing sausages and brisket etc, as it keeps moisture and RH high which helps with cook speed, as well as all the FSIS guidelines.Really I think I just wasn’t used to the new smoker, and how smoke tight it was, and just massively oversmoked the fish.
-
mrobisr and others, I read lox and cold smoke recipes today for a couple hours and converted them all to standard units for comparison. The results are…confusing.
- Marianski uses a brine of 80 degree, which is 21% salt, for his cold smoked and hot smoked recipes. In one table he recommends 1 hour brining for both cold and hot smoke for fish 1 in and thinner. However in his cold smoke recipe he actually says to marinate in the 80 degree brine, that is 21% salt by weight, for 6 to 8 hours and then rinse for 1 hour before smoking. This is obviously not a dry rub or equilibrium cure, and leaving it in that extremely strong brine too long will create a very salty recipe, so the disparity between his two recipes of one hour versus 6 to 8 hours is a big problem. But it probably ends up at 3 to 5% in that 1 to 8 hr frame, after a 1hr rinse.
All the other sources used a dry rub or dry brine equilibrium cure for 36 to 72hrs:
2. Kutas in his book recommend a dry rub or dry brine equilibrium cure, his salt to Salmon ratio comes to 5% and his sugar is 5%.
3. Surg in his recipe here on the forums uses 4.5% salt and a very small amount of sugar, about a quarter percent or less.
4. The two most popular recipe returns on Google are from Spruce eats and wholesome yum. Spruce eats uses 4.25% salt and 5% sugar.
5. Wholesome yum uses an incredible 26% salt dry rub. While Marianski uses 21% liquid brine for just 1 to 8 hrs, this one is for 36 hrs!These hugely different final salt content recipes leave me scratching my head. It appears anything from 3 to 5%, don’t know what to think on Wholesome recipe at 26% except bad amount of salmon… 1 lb probably should be 5 lbs.
I have 2 salmon planks in fridge now, and would have done them today if I could decide which of these saltiness amounts to trust! What I need is a report from a data minded user who actually weighed his salmon and salt used, so I can get a real salt % (cups vs grams vs kosher vs table salt can drive a result from 3 to 5%). Then whose report of “THIS was the right amount of salt, not too much or little” I can rely on. At $35 each for the salmon I don’t want to mess it up.
Dave in AZ Thanks for the info I cannot wait to try.
-
Follow up. Salmon cold smoked was much better the next day. I rinsed it all to get rid of any harsh smoke and acetic acid I could, and I removed the skin which had 50% of the smoke, it peeled right off. I had only tried the very thin belly section, which had a lot more smoke being so thin. I sliced the thick part after 2 day vac sealed, it was very good!
My estimations for others using this equip or brine method:- 4 hrs brine was good. I rinsed 1.5 hrs, but I don’t think it was needed for salt levels.
- Using Smokin It, or other similar tight sealed insulated smoker like CookShack that I heard it is copied from, 0.5 to 2 hrs would be enough smoke, there is almost no smoke loss.
- External CSG, I used Bellas. With ice tray in smoker, it held 64f decent even up to 75 ambient.
- Bellas would smoke for 8 or 9 hours easy. Fill it only 1/4 full, lowest airpump setting, use alder or other light wood.
- Don’t put samon in cold, trying to keep temps down like I did… I dried it unwrapped in fridge, but warm it to ambient. Else you get smoke liquid, mostly acetic acid vinegar, condensing in drops on meat.
- Personally, I will likely do lox as a cure only, no smoke. Maybe a drop or two liquid smoke in brine. If I’m going to smoke it, I will do a hot cook smoke. I just didnt feel the smoke added a ton to the cure that I liked.
- If you fail to put your drip pan under smoker, because you’ve got a drip pan inside holding ice… you WILL get heinous smoke juice concentrate all over your patio. In which case, a commercial degreaser and powerwasher will convince your wife to let you keep the smoker there.
-
Follow up. Salmon cold smoked was much better the next day. I rinsed it all to get rid of any harsh smoke and acetic acid I could, and I removed the skin which had 50% of the smoke, it peeled right off. I had only tried the very thin belly section, which had a lot more smoke being so thin. I sliced the thick part after 2 day vac sealed, it was very good!
My estimations for others using this equip or brine method:- 4 hrs brine was good. I rinsed 1.5 hrs, but I don’t think it was needed for salt levels.
- Using Smokin It, or other similar tight sealed insulated smoker like CookShack that I heard it is copied from, 0.5 to 2 hrs would be enough smoke, there is almost no smoke loss.
- External CSG, I used Bellas. With ice tray in smoker, it held 64f decent even up to 75 ambient.
- Bellas would smoke for 8 or 9 hours easy. Fill it only 1/4 full, lowest airpump setting, use alder or other light wood.
- Don’t put samon in cold, trying to keep temps down like I did… I dried it unwrapped in fridge, but warm it to ambient. Else you get smoke liquid, mostly acetic acid vinegar, condensing in drops on meat.
- Personally, I will likely do lox as a cure only, no smoke. Maybe a drop or two liquid smoke in brine. If I’m going to smoke it, I will do a hot cook smoke. I just didnt feel the smoke added a ton to the cure that I liked.
- If you fail to put your drip pan under smoker, because you’ve got a drip pan inside holding ice… you WILL get heinous smoke juice concentrate all over your patio. In which case, a commercial degreaser and powerwasher will convince your wife to let you keep the smoker there.
Dave in AZ Glad the ice tray worked out for you. You really did take a little bit of this and that to build it “your way”. Yes!!!
-
Dave in AZ Glad the ice tray worked out for you. You really did take a little bit of this and that to build it “your way”. Yes!!!
zbigjeff i got a lot of great input and ideas, which made it a fun project. Trying to give enough results that folks get useful datapoints from their suggestions!
I searched “salmon” at the SmokinIt forums and read every post today. Turns out most agree just 1 or 2 hours smoke and less than 2oz total wood. I didn’t know those forums existed until seeing a 5 year old post by NDKoze I think.
That smoker is super airtight, so drying things out like jerky or smokesticks will be hard. But brisket and butts, where the relative humidity issue stalls things at 150ish, apparently work awesome in it. So I expect I will continue to sous vide finish sticks.
-
zbigjeff i got a lot of great input and ideas, which made it a fun project. Trying to give enough results that folks get useful datapoints from their suggestions!
I searched “salmon” at the SmokinIt forums and read every post today. Turns out most agree just 1 or 2 hours smoke and less than 2oz total wood. I didn’t know those forums existed until seeing a 5 year old post by NDKoze I think.
That smoker is super airtight, so drying things out like jerky or smokesticks will be hard. But brisket and butts, where the relative humidity issue stalls things at 150ish, apparently work awesome in it. So I expect I will continue to sous vide finish sticks.
Dave in AZ Thinking I’ve sent many to this site and at first they thought “well, I’ll try it. But, don’t think I’ll find my answer.” while on Facebook. Then, after they go to meatgistics and the Smokinit sites, they come back happy as heck. They find out it’s just not like a bunch of blowhards like on other sites. Happy that you had the perseverance to finish your project with success. Spread the word.
-
zbigjeff i got a lot of great input and ideas, which made it a fun project. Trying to give enough results that folks get useful datapoints from their suggestions!
I searched “salmon” at the SmokinIt forums and read every post today. Turns out most agree just 1 or 2 hours smoke and less than 2oz total wood. I didn’t know those forums existed until seeing a 5 year old post by NDKoze I think.
That smoker is super airtight, so drying things out like jerky or smokesticks will be hard. But brisket and butts, where the relative humidity issue stalls things at 150ish, apparently work awesome in it. So I expect I will continue to sous vide finish sticks.
Dave in AZ great info I truly enjoyed reading it
-
Dave in AZ great info I truly enjoyed reading it
-
zbigjeff i got a lot of great input and ideas, which made it a fun project. Trying to give enough results that folks get useful datapoints from their suggestions!
I searched “salmon” at the SmokinIt forums and read every post today. Turns out most agree just 1 or 2 hours smoke and less than 2oz total wood. I didn’t know those forums existed until seeing a 5 year old post by NDKoze I think.
That smoker is super airtight, so drying things out like jerky or smokesticks will be hard. But brisket and butts, where the relative humidity issue stalls things at 150ish, apparently work awesome in it. So I expect I will continue to sous vide finish sticks.
Hi Dave, you can do jerky and sticks in the Smokin-It smokers and they turn out awesome. You just need to have/use a Jerky fan to remove the excess moisture.
I smoked 120 pounds of country style sausage through my smoker this past weekend and used my jerky dryer. You can buy the dryer from Smokin-It (that is what I did) or there are several DIY options on the Smokin-It forums as well.
-
Another thing you can do when cold smoking to keep the liquid out is to fill/freeze 1 or 2 liter soda bottles with water. This keeps the moisture in the bottles and not in the smoking chamber.
-
Dave in AZ Glad you could use much of the information from everyone to brand it “your own”. Yay
-
Hi Dave, you can do jerky and sticks in the Smokin-It smokers and they turn out awesome. You just need to have/use a Jerky fan to remove the excess moisture.
I smoked 120 pounds of country style sausage through my smoker this past weekend and used my jerky dryer. You can buy the dryer from Smokin-It (that is what I did) or there are several DIY options on the Smokin-It forums as well.
NDKoze thx, I was getting worried about airflow when I want to dry things, this is good to know! Also good idea on the 2L bottles vs ice in a tray.
-
Another thing you can do when cold smoking to keep the liquid out is to fill/freeze 1 or 2 liter soda bottles with water. This keeps the moisture in the bottles and not in the smoking chamber.
NDKoze haven’t seen you on here in a while. I always enjoyed your posts. Nice to see you back.
-
NDKoze haven’t seen you on here in a while. I always enjoyed your posts. Nice to see you back.
cdavis Yeah, I just get crazy busy and don’t have time to go to my favorite forums. I am actually technically a Moderator on the Smokin-It forum, but haven’t been out there for awhile now either.
I still love my Smokin-It smoker, but have since been using my Grilla Pellet Poopers more than the trusty Smokin-It #3. I did use it this past weekend though in combination with my Grilla Chimp to get all of that country style sausage done and it worked great as usual.
The one tip that I will give you regarding the Jerky Dryer is to not put that on until your smoke phase is done because the excess air will just blow all of that smoke out of the cooking chamber and the excess oxygen will most likely result in your wood catching fire. I usually smoke for about 2-3 hours and then put the dryer on.
Hopefully this helps.
Gregg - Fargo, ND
Smokin-It #3 Electric Smoker that replaced a Masterbuilt XL, Big Chief (still used for fish), and few others over the years, along with a variety of Weber Gas/Charcoal Grills, Anova Sous Vide, etc. devices. -
cdavis Yeah, I just get crazy busy and don’t have time to go to my favorite forums. I am actually technically a Moderator on the Smokin-It forum, but haven’t been out there for awhile now either.
I still love my Smokin-It smoker, but have since been using my Grilla Pellet Poopers more than the trusty Smokin-It #3. I did use it this past weekend though in combination with my Grilla Chimp to get all of that country style sausage done and it worked great as usual.
The one tip that I will give you regarding the Jerky Dryer is to not put that on until your smoke phase is done because the excess air will just blow all of that smoke out of the cooking chamber and the excess oxygen will most likely result in your wood catching fire. I usually smoke for about 2-3 hours and then put the dryer on.
Hopefully this helps.
NDKoze thanks for the info and don’t be such a stranger.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register LoginSponsored By:
