Deer snack sticks to wet
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Amount of water looks good. Maybe give them 1 1\2 to two hours at 150. That should aid in drying before higher temp. starts to cook and seal the outer part pf the meat. And I think the sponges might have counter productive. Added to much humidity.
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What a great smoker set up though, sounds great!
I have a hard time believing a person can handmix 30 lbs of freezing meat, water, and cheese, long enough for good protein extraction. Its like having your hand in a bucket of ice water, 30 sec to a minute. With full machine blade turning over allll the meat, not just 2 handfulls, it takes 8 min or so. By hand I’d guess 20 min or more to get the same amount of agitation and coverage. I’ve mixed 5 lbs by hand vs. Kitchenaid mixer, I just can’t see a good job being done on 30 lbs… especially not while keeping meat cold still.
So my guess would be not enough protein extraction to fully bind the meat, water, fat all together?
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What a great smoker set up though, sounds great!
I have a hard time believing a person can handmix 30 lbs of freezing meat, water, and cheese, long enough for good protein extraction. Its like having your hand in a bucket of ice water, 30 sec to a minute. With full machine blade turning over allll the meat, not just 2 handfulls, it takes 8 min or so. By hand I’d guess 20 min or more to get the same amount of agitation and coverage. I’ve mixed 5 lbs by hand vs. Kitchenaid mixer, I just can’t see a good job being done on 30 lbs… especially not while keeping meat cold still.
So my guess would be not enough protein extraction to fully bind the meat, water, fat all together?
Dave in AZ thanks for your reply and yes it is very cold but I put on my insulated rubber coated gloves that are made for handling hot meat. It was quite a chore and I bet I didn’t do it for 10 minutes! I’m thinking you are either partially correct or fully thanks for the reply again
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Amount of water looks good. Maybe give them 1 1\2 to two hours at 150. That should aid in drying before higher temp. starts to cook and seal the outer part pf the meat. And I think the sponges might have counter productive. Added to much humidity.
mdseaside That is a great idea I think I will run them a little longer at 150 next time ! I’m gonna look for a way to tell what the humidity is in the smoker I wonder if there is some kind of sensor I could get? Do you have any idea what the humidity is supposed to be?
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I ran into an issue one time with encapsulated citric acid, cause I found out after, it was not incapsulated. So the water separated from the meat, the colour was terrible, and the sticks were sawdust.
I also don’t use any added humidity in my smoker, for sticks. But I also maximize the amount of sticks I put in the smoker.
Maybe it is possible your citric acid was in to early and meat got to warm?
I may be way off base here. -
I ran into an issue one time with encapsulated citric acid, cause I found out after, it was not incapsulated. So the water separated from the meat, the colour was terrible, and the sticks were sawdust.
I also don’t use any added humidity in my smoker, for sticks. But I also maximize the amount of sticks I put in the smoker.
Maybe it is possible your citric acid was in to early and meat got to warm?
I may be way off base here. -
Fred, regarding humidity, here is the Waltons advanced page threadfor humidity for snack sticks
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/1099/cured-sausage-205-advanced-thermal-processingHere is their suggested thermal profile for snack sticks
THERMAL PROCESSINGFor information on adding humidity to your smoke schedule go HERE
Either hang on smoke sticks or lay on racks in your smokehouse or oven. Just be sure to leave a slight gap between the snack sticks. A simple cooking schedule you can follow is here:
125F for 1 hour
140F for 1 hour
155F for 2 hours
175F until internal meat temp of 160FAfter rereading your thermal profile, it really looks good. And your sponge humidity thing should have been fine, no issue there. And you didnt add too much water… I made some last week and ended up adding 630ml or so to 7 lbs meat, 3 cups or so, a lot. Yet all the moisture is bound up, not wet at all, and I was in smoker 4 hrs total or so, to 141 f internal, then I sous vide finished it.
The other thing I notice besides mixing are
- No binding agent listed. I used 3/4 cup instant dry milk, the binding agent in Walton’s sold out Sure Gel. A good binding agent keeps the water and meat juices from cooking all enmeshed in the meat matrix, so it doesn’t leak out as juice and moisture. If you didn’t use anything, that could definitely affect final wetness, especially if not a super mix.
Anyways, hope any of those thoughts might help. I’m just happy to have a good problem to think about, as I lay on the beach here in Hawaii watching my kid surf, trying to stay occupied!
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Fred Bear, The only thing I see that might account for the overly wet sticks is too much humidity in your smoker. Next time I would scale back or eliminate the skillet/ sponges.
Sounds like you have a great smoker setup. -
I don’t think he was over humidified, probably. Guys testing sponges in pans, on Walton’s humidity school post and other places, indicate 45 to 50% relative humidity only. That isn’t high. All the recipes Marianski gives in his book Art of Making Fermented Sausages, have much higher levels, even for the fast semi dry and straight cooked ones. Even without a ferment, basically a snack stick recipe you just blend, stuff, and cook/dry, the first 5 or 10 hrs are all at 75 to 85% humidity. The ferments, if any, are at 90% or so, but he lists a lot of non fermented just cooked to semi dry stuff with gdl or citric acid to acidulate… basically a meatstick. And all of those are stated to not be able to achieve with sponges in water. Anyways, just saying that he is in a totally reasonable range for humidity for semi dry cooked, definitely not too high per technique I’ve read. I really think his setup is fantastic, and just more mixing and a binder to hold all that moisture in matrix will do it for him.
As soon as I read his smoker setup, I was thinking, This guy and processhead are the dudes I need helping me build my temp/humidity controlled smoker!
I would just leave them out in the fridge and let them dry a bit more, I bet the internal moisture will even out thru case walls and dry to a nice texture in a couple days in fridge.
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I agree with Dave in AZ on how to dry out the current batch. Holding in a refrigerated space will dry them out and periodic sampling will tell you when you have them at the right point.
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Fred, regarding humidity, here is the Waltons advanced page threadfor humidity for snack sticks
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/1099/cured-sausage-205-advanced-thermal-processingHere is their suggested thermal profile for snack sticks
THERMAL PROCESSINGFor information on adding humidity to your smoke schedule go HERE
Either hang on smoke sticks or lay on racks in your smokehouse or oven. Just be sure to leave a slight gap between the snack sticks. A simple cooking schedule you can follow is here:
125F for 1 hour
140F for 1 hour
155F for 2 hours
175F until internal meat temp of 160FAfter rereading your thermal profile, it really looks good. And your sponge humidity thing should have been fine, no issue there. And you didnt add too much water… I made some last week and ended up adding 630ml or so to 7 lbs meat, 3 cups or so, a lot. Yet all the moisture is bound up, not wet at all, and I was in smoker 4 hrs total or so, to 141 f internal, then I sous vide finished it.
The other thing I notice besides mixing are
- No binding agent listed. I used 3/4 cup instant dry milk, the binding agent in Walton’s sold out Sure Gel. A good binding agent keeps the water and meat juices from cooking all enmeshed in the meat matrix, so it doesn’t leak out as juice and moisture. If you didn’t use anything, that could definitely affect final wetness, especially if not a super mix.
Anyways, hope any of those thoughts might help. I’m just happy to have a good problem to think about, as I lay on the beach here in Hawaii watching my kid surf, trying to stay occupied!
Dave in AZ I think you’re right on what might have happened. I like a dryer meat stick, and after my cooking, I transfer to my charcuterie fridge, 85% humidity at 56 degrees for six days or so.
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Hey guy’s, I have the exact opposite problem most people have. My sticks were a little to wet. First of all I will explain all the details of the process I used.
I mixed 18 lbs. of deer with 7 lbs. of pork shoulder, then I used seasoning and cure with 25 oz. of water, handmixed until sticky then added 3 lbs. high temp cheddar and encapsulated citric acid and mixed until even. I then stuffed 21mm collagen casings 6 feet long and hung in my smoker I just built. My smoker is a commercial stainless refrigerator that I removed all the foam and replaced with mineral wool and put an oven element in it that I control with an Auber instruments PID. The smoke is supplied by a smoke daddy cold smoke generator. I started at 100 degrees for one hour to dry the casings and then put a big cast iron skillet in for a water pan with 4 automotive sponges sticking half out of the water. Then took the heat to 125 for and hour and then 150 for an hour and then 175 and in 4 1/2 hours they were at 160 so I pulled them and ice bathed them until the got down to 50 degrees, then hung them back up for 4 hours. Oh and I stapled the ends of the sticks after stuffing and the damper on the smoker is a 3” pipe which was barely cracked. So I guess I’m wondering if the relative humidity was too high because of all the sponges or did I not mix long enough to get enough protein extraction? Any comments would be greatly appreciated if you’ve ever had this problem thank you in advance for your responseFred Bear I will try to get back on here later and give my opinion. If you don’t hear from me by tomorrow remind me and I will look further into it.
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If mixing by hand, I would use some sort of binder such as sure gel.
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Dave in AZ I think you’re right on what might have happened. I like a dryer meat stick, and after my cooking, I transfer to my charcuterie fridge, 85% humidity at 56 degrees for six days or so.
pepperettes wow what a nice setup! I keep adding folks to my list to copy their setups heh.
Hey, I just reread the opening post, and processhead might have a great point, I totally missed the fact his “smoker” is almost 100% airtight sealed commercial fridge! I was thinking a box with airflow like a normal smoker, but he has a hearing element in there, smoke daddy making the smoke, and his vent tube was barely cracked. I could see relative humidity in that climbing to 99% pretty fast as moisture left sausage and then no more drying. Could be a factor, along with mixing and binder.
With such an airtight and nice setup, what do you think about getting a Line Voltage Humidistat, and a small humidifier in there to turn on and off? The sensors are pretty accurate, they are small units 6in x 2in x 2in or so. I used to use the temperature ones from Grainger and White Rodgers, and replace the temp controls on refrigerators for beer making and storage. They had a nice humidistat line also. If it turns out your humidity is up 95% in that sealed box, you could wire a computer fan to your 3 in damper, controlled by the humidistat. I’ve been looking at this myself all week for a smokehouse/drying chamber design.
Thx again for the nice chat, laying on beach was getting boring -
Not sure he can Bear the wait!
And hope you’re answer to his question is not every State in America again?
pepperettes I had the right answer with that trivia question and never got my discount code, I don’t understand what happened?
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You sure did! Lol
I would bring that grievance forward, up a couple of levels. You got my vote!
Be salty, cause someone has a cure! -
Hey guy’s, I have the exact opposite problem most people have. My sticks were a little to wet. First of all I will explain all the details of the process I used.
I mixed 18 lbs. of deer with 7 lbs. of pork shoulder, then I used seasoning and cure with 25 oz. of water, handmixed until sticky then added 3 lbs. high temp cheddar and encapsulated citric acid and mixed until even. I then stuffed 21mm collagen casings 6 feet long and hung in my smoker I just built. My smoker is a commercial stainless refrigerator that I removed all the foam and replaced with mineral wool and put an oven element in it that I control with an Auber instruments PID. The smoke is supplied by a smoke daddy cold smoke generator. I started at 100 degrees for one hour to dry the casings and then put a big cast iron skillet in for a water pan with 4 automotive sponges sticking half out of the water. Then took the heat to 125 for and hour and then 150 for an hour and then 175 and in 4 1/2 hours they were at 160 so I pulled them and ice bathed them until the got down to 50 degrees, then hung them back up for 4 hours. Oh and I stapled the ends of the sticks after stuffing and the damper on the smoker is a 3” pipe which was barely cracked. So I guess I’m wondering if the relative humidity was too high because of all the sponges or did I not mix long enough to get enough protein extraction? Any comments would be greatly appreciated if you’ve ever had this problem thank you in advance for your responseFred Bear ok first I’m gonna touch on your process, then your smoker.
With 18lbs deer and 7lbs pork shoulder your lean to fat ratio is on the lean side. With pork shoulder at best being 80/20 and adding to lean trimmed venison you would be around 95/5 - 90/10 at best. If wanting to use 18lbs of venison I would recommend 18lbs venison, 5lbs pork shoulder and 2 lbs straight pork fat if available.For water, you are at half of what I use, 25oz is just shy of 800ml, I use 1600ml - 1800ml for a 25lb meat block depending on amount of seasoning. The sweet seasonings have a lot of seasoning compared to a plain seasoning.
As far as mixing/protein extraction i disagree with Dave, I mix all my batches by hand. I wear cotton gloves under nitrile gloves. It’s definitely achievable to get great protein extraction by hand mixing, sure gel or other binder does help in that process, although not necessarily needed to achieve it.
I run a thermal schedule that I have found to be very successful, here it is,
110* 1 hour all dampers wide open (drying phase)
125* 2 hours top damper open 1/8 and bottom open 1/3-1/2 (start smoke)
140* 1 hour (smoke)
155* 2 hours (remove smoke after first hour of this set) (hours of smoke is based on personal preference)
170* all dampers closed until IT reaches 157*~160*
Ice bath immediately after IT is reached. All smokers react differently.In my opinion you do not need humidity in the smoker until the meat reaches the stall point, which is around 148* IT for me. However with you having an oven element for your heat source which I’m assuming is 240V I believe you would have the energy to push the meat past the stall without adding a water pan and sponges. That method would definitely get you past the stall faster however. If you do use the pan and sponge method I would not put it in the smoker til the stall point, this would allow the meat to properly dry while cooking. Adding humidity really helps for people with small smokers with 110V small burners or pellet grills.
For your smoker, just a few points, you said you had a 3” exhaust, does that have a fan built into it to supply air flow? As well as a damper at the bottom of door to allow air flow? My smoker also has a built in recirculation fan to keep the cabin heat even on top middle and bottom. I believe it is necessary for the bigger open cabinet models, small smokers not so much.
Does your Auburn PID turn your burner on and off when set temps are reached or needed? What type of temp swings does it have if so?
Final conclusion/opinion: I fully believe two issues are the main suspect of your end result. #1 your water amount was not enough to give you full protein extraction ending up a dryer consistency thinking it was mixed thoroughly by giving an early stickiness. And #2 a rushed step up in temperature during your thermal process as well as adding water pan for humidity too early.
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Twillams the only air or fan is the aquarium pump that pushes air through my smoke generator. The PID controller keeps the temp within 1 degrees to all times! (It’s amazing!) I have probed the entire cooking chamber and only found a 4 degree difference in it.(which I’m still having a hard time believing!) also as my sticks cooked I had 5 temp probes at different places all over and they all stayed within 1 degree of each other in fact when I pulled them 4 of the probes were at 160 and the 5th was 161. I couldn’t believe it. But I think you may be right about adding water to soon but I may try the other suggestion and get a sensor for the humidity and I definitely need to mix longer and use sure gel next time! Thanks to everyone that responded!
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